The following is an exchange I was invited into by Michael Ohanian on 4/16/15, sadly I had class at the time of this thread but he said I could transcribe it for Liberty.me. This post is a good example of how people conflate morality with legality while maintaining the cognitive dissonance when confronted by the idea that all state actions (even those actions remaining in demand) are inherently coercive or funded by coercion. I normally provide commentary for these transcriptions, but Micheal does a good job of dismantling the statist arguments with his own comments.

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Link to video

1) Statist Bill:
I never saw a government violently fill a pothole

2) Statist Bill:
I wish they would use more vilence when filling them maybe they wouldnt have to come back and refill them a month later

3) Michael:
The government isn’t violent? Interesting, I didn’t know it just asked for your permission before, oh, I don’t know… putting a gun to your head.

You say, “I never saw a government violently fill a pothole…” but think for just a second:

– The government takes taxes from people against their will to pay for things like filling pot holes.
– If people don’t pay the taxes they had NO say in, what happens?
– The government comes in with guns to kidnap you
– If you resist, the government can possibly shoot you

No violence? Everything the government does is based on the threat that if you don’t comply, they WILL enact violence on you.

4) Statist Bill:
You do have a say it’s called a vote. The government does not come in with guns and kidnap you. Unless your shooting at the government they 99.99999999% of the time will not shoot you…There are apparently bad cops who will if you are the what they perceive to be the wrong color

5) Statist Bill:
And…If you choose to live in a particular area, you by default agree to pay the taxes

6) Statist Bill:
Before you move in this is quite clear on all the paperwork you sign before moving in…it is also on the brochures

7) Michael:
LOL I have a say???? No, I have NO say.

If 6 people vote to rob me, and I vote to not rob me, do I have a say in them robbing me?

No. I had no say. I’m violated against my will.

8) Statist Bill:
You had a choice not to move there. Before you moved in you knew there would be taxes right?

9) Michael:
HAHA I was randomly born in this arbitrary place called “America” based on the position of my mom’s genitalia. Sorry, I had no choice in that either.

10) Statist Bill:
You didnt live there for 18 months tax free and then someone came you your door and said now you have to pay taxes right?

11) Michael:
I’d love to see you try to disprove the following point:
10314653_10206411940478892_453764462697358023_n

12) Michael:
So people around me can “vote” to take something from me against my will, and somehow this principle is okay?

13) Statist Bill:
Did you agree to pay taxes when you bought your home…Part of the “deal” when you moved in was that you would pay taxes correct?

14) Statist Bill:
It was part of my deal and I agreed. So I’m guessing it was also part of yours as well

15) Michael:
No… I bought a home.

Again, you would say “yes” to this principle: “So people around me can “vote” to take something from me against my will, and somehow this principle is okay?”

16) Statist Bill:
You bought your home and the taxes were spelled out in the paperwork correct?

17) Michael:
You didn’t answer my question.

18) Statist Bill:
So you could have said “no I do not want to but this home because I do not wish to pay property tax” correct?

19) Michael:
You didn’t answer my question.

20) Statist Bill:
Taxes can be taken from you that is understood

21) Michael:
Do you agree or disagree with the following principle:

“So people around me can “vote” to take something from me against my will, and somehow this principle is okay?”

22) Statist Bill:
Take what from you…People can’t vote to take certain things because of your constitutional protections

23) Michael:
My money

24) Statist Bill:
Taxes on the other hand can be collected

25) Statist Bill:
Yes

26) Statist Bill:
Taxes can be collected from you

27) Statist Bill:
you agreed to pay property tax when you bought your home

28) Statist Bill:
YOu agree to pay sales tax when you go to the store

29) Michael:
So if you give NO consent, people can take what they want from you against your will?

30) Statist Bill:
It depends on what your talking about but if it’s taxes yes

31) Michael:
So is clause 1 wrong in the following picture:
10314653_10206411940478892_453764462697358023_n

32) Statist Bill:
it depends on the situation

33) Michael:
When would clause 1 be right or morally okay?

34) Statist Bill:
If John says stop molesting that child or I will shoot you then that would be ok

35) Statist Bill:
Stop breaking into my car or I will shoot you

36) Michael:
You’re now changing clause 1… there is nothing in clause 1 to indicate you’re doing anything to John.

Please answer based on what clause 1 actually says.

37) Statist Bill:
There is nothing in clause one saying you are not doing anything wrong either

38) Statist Bill:
so again it depends on the situation

39) Michael:
I asked you if clause 1 was wrong… not “is it wrong except for an infinite amount of situations.”

Please stop deflecting. Is clause 1 wrong?

40) Statist Bill:
Well I dont know if its wrong what is John telling you to do?

41) Michael:
It says it in the first box. Please read and answer. Stop deflecting.

42) Statist Bill:
That’s too simplistic…If John is telling you not to mow your lawn because he like to look at long grass that would be wrong. If John is telling you to stop breaking into cars then it would be ok

43) Statist Bill:
So I don’t know

44) Michael:
For the second time, it is not, “is it wrong except for an infinite amount of situations.”

45) Statist Bill:
Then Im going to say no it’s not wrong because I am not going to assume John is a psycho that walks around telling people not to do things for no reason

46) Michael:
There is nothing in the image showing the character labeled “you” doing anything except standing there.

Please answer the question.

47) Michael:
So if the first clause is correct, is the second clause correct?

48) Statist Bill:
I did

49) Statist Bill:
I said No because I dont think John is a Psycho that goes around threatening people for no reason

50) Statist Bill:
I think he only would do that if you were doing something wrong

51) Michael:
So the first clause is incorrect?

52) Statist Bill:
The way I view it yes because John is most likely telling you not to do something that is considered morally and or legally wrong

53) Michael:
There is no indication of that in the picture. Please answer based on what you know.

If you were doing nothing to me, would it be moral or just in your opinion for me to threaten you and if you didn’t go along with what I wanted, violate you?

54) Statist Bill:
I dont know anything I have a picture of a blue guy and a white guy and the white guy is telling the blue guy to obey him. We have no idea what the blue guy is doing. The picture doesn’t indicate what blue guy is doing

55) Michael:
He is doing nothing. I’ve explained this 5 times. You are dodging. I’ve also just added a follow-up piece of information to help you better understand. Replace “John” with me, and the you is still you.

Are you actually going to answer?

56) Statist Bill:
well of course if he is doing absolutely nothing wrong than it would be wrong to make someone jump through hoops

57) Statist Bill:
without proper compensation

58) Michael:
Are you going to answer the question?

59) Statist Bill:
Based on the picture there is no right or wrong answer

60) Michael:
I asked a follow up question… you have still ignored it. Are you going to answer it?

61) Statist Bill:
but if he is doing nothing wrong then people cannot come and say obey me

62) Statist Bill:
what is the followup question?

63) Michael:
If you were doing nothing to me, would it be moral or just in your opinion for me to threaten you and if you didn’t go along with what I wanted, violate you?

64) Statist Bill:
Depending on the situation. If I was breaking into your neighbors car and you said stop doing that or I will shoot. I was technically not doing anything to you. and you would have a right to threaten me. If I was minding my own business on my property not breaking any laws and minding my own business then yes it would be wrong for you to violate me

65) Michael:
” If I was minding my own business on my property not breaking any laws and minding my own business then yes it would be wrong for you to violate me” – good. Glad that you recognize this.

So if it is wrong for me to violate you, would it be right if I violated you because a bunch of people that agree with me said it’s okay?

66) Statist Bill:
Well it depends what is the law?

67) Statist Bill:
What is the situation?

68) Michael:
I didn’t ask about the law… If you were doing nothing and minding your own business, you said it would be wrong for me to violate you.

Now, if it is wrong for me to violate you, in principle, would it be okay for me to violate you as long as I got a bunch of people to agree with me.

69) Statist Bill:
You have to give me a situation. If I am not violating a law then yes

70) Statist Bill:
I mean yes it would be wrong

71) Michael:
So, you’ve said this:

1. It’s wrong for me to violate you if you were doing nothing to me or anybody else

2. It would STILL be wrong for me to violate you if you were doing nothing to me or anybody else, even IF I got a bunch of people to agree with me that I can violate you

Correct?

72) Statist Bill:
If I am not breaking any of the socieities laws yes it would be wrong to violate me

73) Michael:
Interesting… that’s government.

If it’s not okay for me to violate you, and it’s not okay for me to violate you even if people agree with me… tell me how it would be okay to violate you if people called a “government” agree with me.

You do realize that in the second point, I outlined a government.

74) Michael:
There is NO difference in the second point and the government.

If I violate you, it’s wrong.

If I violate you, and people agree with me, it’s wrong.

But to you, if I violate you and a group of people called a “government” agree with me, somehow that becomes okay?????

75) Statist Bill:
Well If they are a government that you chose to live under…Which is everyone who lives in the USA…then you are required to follow the governments rules. The rules apply to everyone. Not just you, and not just to the people enforcing them.

76) Michael:
You just said that it would NOT be moral for a group of people to violate you simply because they all agree to violate you.

But somehow, it’s okay for a group of people to call themselves a “government” to violate you????

So all a gang has to do is be like, “we are government” and I guess they can just violate people and that’s okay, huh?

77) Statist Bill:
So again If the scenario is a group of people wish to keep you from exercising your right to free speech that is wrong. If a group of people wish to keep you from stealing from your neighbor that is ok. One is against societies rules and one is a right you are given.

78) Michael:
I never said that. Stop twisting the scenario.

79) Statist Bill:
Your not providing enough information in your scenario

80) Statist Bill:
See I’ve got you…In some instances it is certainly ok for a group of people whether it be individuals or a government to step in. In some situations it isnt. It is not Black (or in this caseBlue) and white

81) Michael:
You keep referring to “society.” You also realize your “you can leave” clause doesn’t work for many, many countries, right? What do you say to people of North Korea who live under a “government” but can’t leave?

No matter what, at the end of the day, you think it’s perfectly okay to initiate violence against someone in order to get them to behave in a way you think is right. I find that belief to be an immoral one.

82) Michael:
The only thing that’s black and white is that I find it immoral to initiate violence against someone in order to get people to adhere to an opinion.

Law is an opinion backed by a gun. That’s it.

83) Statist Bill:
But it does work for you. You have the right to leave. You have the right to choose. There are some governments that do give their people that right. Unfortunately there are some governments that do not. We are lucky enough to have been born in a place that gives us the right to make a choice about where we want to live, when we want to leave, and when we want to come back. We have the option to go anywhere on the planet (including North Korea, Cuba, Etc) and our government will not prosecute us. Just don’t get into trouble in some of those places and you won’t have a government backing you up. North Korea don’t get caught accidentally falling over their boarder. The point is YOU HAVE A CHOICE. There is no rule or law that takes that away from you. Our way of life has evolved into that.

84) Michael:
Your entire premise stands on the notion of “if you don’t like being violated here, go be violated somewhere else.” And you think this is okay?

85) Statist Bill:
Yes because I do not believe my government violates me

86) Michael:
But you’re okay if it violates your neighbors. Got it.

Your exact principle applied would be like, “you know, if the Jews don’t like the laws of the Third Reich, they can just leave Germany.”

87) Me:
Solid.
(This is where they were when I started transcribing and I didn’t think Statist Bill could keep it going much longer. I was wrong.)

88) Statist Bill:
Why do you always go to the extreme. The Jews lived under an oppressive government without any rights. You don’t. Your complaining about living in a society that you don’t live in.

89) Michael:
I simply apply YOUR principle. YOUR principle is that if you don’t like what a government does, you can leave.

YOUR principle dictates that the Jews could have simply left Germany if they didn’t like the oppression they felt.

Is that not YOUR principle applied? Please tell me how it’s not.

90) Michael:
But wait… extreme? Let’s see what’s extreme:

– The US government imprisoned Japanese Americans for simply being Japanese.
– The US government is $18 T in debt.
– The US government vaporized innocent people…

You seem to forget all the wonderful things your awesome government does when it’s convenient.

Regardless, I still want to know if you stand by your principle or not…

91) Statist Bill:
The Government did 2 of those things 80 years ago and the 18T in debt…what does that have to do with you leaving whenever you would like?

92) Michael:
Bill: “If you don’t like the government, you can leave…”

Me: “Nazi Germany started with that same policy before The Final Solution was enacted…”

Bill: “But but but but but, you can’t apply MY principle to that…”

93) Michael:
Is that your principle?
94) Statist Bill:
The government also allowed blacks to be slaves…now a black is president

95) Statist Bill:
If you don’t like our government you can leave

96) Michael:
^^^ Is that your principle?

97) Statist Bill:
Yes if you don’t like our government in 2015 you are free to leave anytime you like,,,if you just want to leave for a little while…that’s ok too. When you are ready you may come back

98) Michael:
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH you caveat it with 2015?????????

So your principle, to people who are oppressed, regardless of the year, should simply leave if the majority decides to oppress them?

What if say, ooooooooo, I don’t know, in 2015, the government discriminates against homosexuals. Should homosexuals just leave?

99) Statist Bill:
You can say I just hate the US government so much…it’s 4/16/15, I’m leaving. No one will stop you at the boarder. if on 6/18/2027 you say I miss the United States and want to go back. They will welcome you back. Isn’t it great that you have the ability to that?

100) Michael:
Or maybe you mean that you support the government of 2015, and it’s wonderful it only took 230 + years that included slavery, debt, nuclear bombs, etc, to get it to a point you like.

101) Statist Bill:
i don’t have to like what happened before 9/28/82. I wasn’t here

102) Michael:
First, I don’t have the ability to do that because I get penalized if I do. Secondly, your whole principle is, “if you don’t like being oppressed here… go be oppressed somewhere else.”

103) Statist Bill:
But I can learn from the mistakes made in the past and not repeat them

104) Statist Bill:
I dont say I hate the NBA because in 1962 they did not use a shot clock

105) Statist Bill:
ou say you hate the US because people who are long dead allowed slavery]

106) Michael:
LOL “mistakes of the past.”

Are we learning from 91% of the US government’s history has been spent at war, or the $18T in debt? Or is it the spying on US citizens we’re learning from? Or is it supplying arms to terrorists? Which is the learning experience to get it “right?” How many more bodies do you want to pile up? How much debt?

107) Michael:
No, I hate the government because people like you want to see your neighbors forced, using the threat of violence, to live in a way you think is right. You want your opinions forced on people.

108) Statist Bill:
No one forces my neighbors or myself to do anything they don’t want to do. My neighbors, like myself, chose to live where we live. In doing so we agreed to follow the rules of the area

109) Michael:
You believe government is necessary, and because of that, you want to force your neighbors to do things they don’t want to do… and you justify it with, “well, if my neighbors don’t like being oppressed, they can give up their home and leave.”

110) Statist Bill:
i dont force my neighbors to do anything they don’t want to do. I say hi, limit my interaction with them and go on with my business.

111) Michael:
Ever single time you vote and support a politician, you’re saying,

“hey, politician, force MY views onto my neighbors.”

112) Michael:
@Bill be like, “hey, politicians, throw my neighbors into a cage if they smoke a plant.”

113) Michael:
@Bill be like, “hey, politician, for my neighbors to give up some of their income.”

114) Statist Bill:
When they bought their house, like when I bought my house, we agreed that you can’t park on the street between 11/1-4/1. We agreed that if you have a dog you need to get it registered. we agreed that in NY you need to get your car registered every 2 years and inspected every year. They werent surprises. No one forced me to live here i chose to

115) Statist Bill:
small amounts of that plant have been decriminalized in NY

116) Michael:
100% false… someone else decided those things.,. Please keep to the truth.

117) Statist Bill:
What is 100% false?

118) Michael:
@Bill be like, “hey, politician, throw my neighbors into a cage if they have ‘large’ amounts of a plant I don’t like.”

119) Statist Bill:
That I agreed to those things when i chose to buy a house in that area.

120) Michael:
Bill be like, “hey, politician, throw my neighbors into a cage if they have ‘large’ amounts of a plant I don’t like.”

121) Statist Bill:
i don’t care what people smoke as long as my kid isnt exposed to it

122) Michael:
@Bill be like, “hey politician, throw my neighbors into a cage if they have a powdery substance I don’t like.”

123) Statist Bill:
damn right if i see it…That’s one of the rules i agreed to when i moved in

124) Michael:
Thank you for proving the following statement right:

Michael Ohanian You believe government is necessary, and because of that, you want to force your neighbors to do things they don’t want to do…

125) Michael:
You also proved the following statement correct, too:

Michael Ohanian No, I hate the government because people like you want to see your neighbors forced, using the threat of violence, to live in a way you think is right. You want your opinions forced on people.

126) Statist Bill:
if they are not living up to the rules they agreed to when they decided to move to the area yup

127) Statist Bill:
When moving to my town you agree to following all town ordinances, county and state laws

128) Michael:
– Your opinion is that cocaine is bad.
– You want that view forced on people using the threat of violence (kidnapping at gunpoint).

Thanks for proving me correct.

129) Statist Bill:
Umm arrest is not kidnapping

130) Michael:
Bill be like, “I want MY views forced on people.”

131) Michael:
Bill be like, “politician… if my neighbor owns some powder I don’t like, kidnap him at gunpoint and throw him into a cage.”

132) Statist Bill:
I just want people to follow the rules they agreed to follow when they decided to live in a certain society

133) Michael:
No, you want YOUR opinions forced on people. Just be honest with yourself, dude.

134) Statist Bill:
in this case our society. In 2015 The government no longer discriminates against women or people of color

135) Statist Bill:
peple are free to come and go as they please

136) Michael:
HAHAHA wtf does that have to do with anything. Way to try to deflect…

Bill be like, “I want my views forced on people, and hey… women and black people… they’re cool now.”

137) Statist Bill:
They are free to speak out against the government without fear of punishment from said government

138) Michael:
HAHAHAH way to deflect dude. That has nothing to do with anything.

Again, just admit it… you want YOUR views forced on people…

139) Statist Bill:
You are lucky you were born in the US and not a place like north Korea or China. The stuff you say would get you “kidnapped” and “thrown in a cage” in those places

140) Michael:
Just admit it, dude… you want people to be forced to abide by what you think is right…

141) Statist Bill:
I would like for the government to accept all my views but that would never happen

142) Statist Bill:
you would like for them to accespt all yours as well

143) Michael:
LOL no… I don’t want a government to force my views on anyone. Wtf is so hard to understand?

144) Michael:
I don’t want my views FORCED on anyone…. You DO want your views forced on people.

145) Statist Bill:
You would though…for the government to dissolve and for there to be no government, you would need the government force all the people to live under no government. What if people want to live under a government/

146) Michael:
Again, 100% false… if YOU want to voluntarily agree to be under the rule of someone else, and if YOU want to get into that arrangement, great… go for it. I wouldn’t stop you….

But the difference is, you want me to be FORCED to live under that same arrangement even if I don’t want to.

Just as I have repeated:

Again, just admit it… you want YOUR views forced on people…

147) Michael:
You have NO idea how voluntarism works…

148) Statist Bill:
You advocate for a world with no government. But you have no idea how to make it happen. You have no idea what step one would be to set up a government free world. You advocate for something that in 6 billion years has NEVER existed

149) Statist Bill:
you can’t find one society that has ever thrived with 0 government.

150) Michael:
Haha down into the same irrelevant path… when you get called out that you want to force your will onto people, you go down this irrelevant world of… “but you can’t find anywhere that this worked.”

So you’re saying… “well, since it hasn’t happened… let’s continue to try to control people against their will.”

But as previously posted, thank you for again showing this to be true;

“if YOU want to voluntarily agree to be under the rule of someone else, and if YOU want to get into that arrangement, great… go for it. I wouldn’t stop you….

But the difference is, you want me to be FORCED to live under that same arrangement even if I don’t want to.”

151) Statist Bill:
I like what we got…A vast majority of the population you choose to live with likes what we got…They may not like the president but overall they like what they got. It’s not going away so learn to live with it

152) Michael:
Again, so you just want people around you to be FORCED to live under what you think is right….

153) Michael:
Just admit it: you want your opinions forced on people. Be real with yourself.

154) Michael:
Come on, dude,… you’re almost there. You almost got me a bingo!
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155) Michael:
You almost gave me 4 corners on this one!
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156) Michael:
It’s funny because I have always noticed the difference, and I’ve always called you out on it… and you always squirm away into some unrelated notion of, “but why don’t you vote then” or “you can’t make it happen.”

See:

Again, 100% false… if YOU want to voluntarily agree to be under the rule of someone else, and if YOU want to get into that arrangement, great… go for it. I wouldn’t stop you….

But the difference is, you want me to be FORCED to live under that same arrangement even if I don’t want to.

Again, I believe in 100% voluntary associations. If YOU want to be under a government… arrange it with those people…

But you want me and others to be FORCED to go along… I don’t believe in that. I don’t want to be under a government, and I am 100% comfortable with saying, “I DON’T want you to be forced to live my way… if you want to live under a government, great. But don’t force me, and no… ME changing my life to avoid what YOU want isn’t a solution.”

That would be like saying, “well, if you don’t like being robbed, just run away.”

157) Michael:
Me: People should be free from coercion. They shouldn’t be forced to do anything.

You: No, no way… people should be forced into associations they might not want.

BIG difference.

158) Statist Bill:
No one is forced into any situation or association they might not want. people choose those associations at least in this country

159) Michael:
False. I want no association with the government. You want it forced onto me.

160) Statist Bill:
Ok so go somewhere where the US government does not have jurisdiction

161) Michael:
So again, for the 2nd straight time…

You: “if you don’t want to deal with muggers… when they approach you, just run…”

Why should I have to give up what I have because I’m oppressed and people’s opinions are forced onto me?

162) Statist Bill:
How are you oppressed?

163) Michael:
You: “If you don’t like being oppressed on this plantation, go to another plantation.”

164) Michael:
My property is seized without my consent. We’ve gone over this.

165) Statist Bill:
it is? When was your property seized?

166) Michael:
Taxes. Money is taken from me against my will.

167) Statist Bill:
No, we went over this. When you signed the papers to buy your home you made an agreement to pay taxes

168) Michael:
So people who live in apartments don’t pay taxes? Your logic is destroyed.

169) Statist Bill:
When you took a job to earn money you agreed to pay taxes on that money

170) Statist Bill:
People who live in apartments pay rent

171) Michael:
I have given NO consent to have money forcibly taken from me.

172) Statist Bill:
people who own the apartment pay the property taxes

173) Michael:
Rent is CONSENSUAL.

174) Michael:
Taxes are not.

175) Statist Bill:
When you bought your home you agreed to pay the property taxes

176) Michael:
No I did not… My purchase agreement was between me and the seller.

That’s actually the definition of oppression: a third party interfering with a transaction between two consenting people.

Additionally, I have NO choice in this matter. That IS oppression. Again, you wanting people to be forced to live a certain way is oppression.

177) Michael:
I’m just waiting for you to admit it… then there is no reason to talk to you:

You want people to be forced to live by what you think is right….

178) Statist Bill:
you do have a choice. You could rent. Then you don’t have to pay property taxes

179) Statist Bill:
You can not work then you dont have to pay income tax

180) Statist Bill:
You can not buy things from stores then you dont have to pay sales tax

181) Statist Bill:
By doing any of the above things you agree to pay taxes…it’s part of the deal

182) Michael:
@Bill be like….. “If you don’t want to get robbed, don’t walk through a certain neighborhood… ”

183) Statist Bill:
EXACTLY…I do not walk through high crime neighborhoods because i dont want to heighten my risk of being a victim

184) Michael:
Show me where it’s part of the deal. Do me a favor… show me where I signed up to this service. If you can provide my signature on a document saying I agree to have money seized from me against my will, I’ll be an authoritarian just like you.

185) Michael:
^^^^ Just admitted taxation is theft. Thanks.

186) Statist Bill:
When you signed your agreement with the bank it most certainly states you agreeto pay property taxes

187) Michael:
@Bill be like, “if you don’t want to get robbed, go to a different neighborhood, country, city, etc.”

188) Statist Bill:
if you know in neighborhood A people frequently get robbed who walk down the street, would you choose to walk down the street in that neighborhood?

189) Michael:
@Bill be like, “here in this neighborhood called ‘America’ we rob people… they have to forfeit some of their wealth against their will… so if you don’t like it here, go to a different neighborhood and get robbed there.”

190) Michael:
I’m literally chuckling that you’re admitting, “yes, we rob you via taxation… ”

191) Michael:
@Bill be like, “here in this neighborhood called ‘America’ the gang called the ‘government’ is so deep into everything… you can’t get a job without them robbing you… you can’t buy a house without them robbing you… you can’t buy a cheeseburger without them robbing you… so just go ahead and get robbed if you want to do any of these things that really shouldn’t involve the gang, or, if you don’t like it, go get robbed somewhere else.”

192) Statist Bill:
its not robbery. if youy dont want to pay taxes on a cheeseburger, don’t buy the cheeseburger
193) Michael:
@Larken Rose – where is your statist bingo card? You can be a winner here, too… If you can handle the nauseating notion that Bill believes that people should be forced to abide by the opinions of others using violence as a mechanism.

194) Statist Bill:
It is theft. If I buy a cheeseburger from McDonalds, why does a third party need to take some of that?

195) Larken Rose:
Bill, I hereby declare North America to be mine. You will pay me $100 a week, or get out. By living on the continent, you are AGREEING to this arrangement. Pay up or get out.

196) Michael:
If I buy a golf club from neighbor A, and I give him $30 for it, if neighbor B comes and takes $2 from that transaction, he has committed theft if neighbor A does not give him consent to pilfer that $2. The problem: neighbor A has no choice… he is forced, using the threat of violence, by neighbor B to forfeit the money… that’s not consent. That’s theft. And neighbor B is the government.

197) Statist Bill:
Why would a third neighbor come and take $2 he is not entitled to?

198) Larken Rose:
Bill, because you voted for him to.

199) Michael:
@Bill – why is the government entitled to take money from the cheeseburger transaction?

200) Statist Bill:
because the person, when buying the cheeseberger agreed to pay sales tax\

201) Michael:
Because it’s the “government?” If that’s the case, I’ll just call myself a government and rob people, because according to you, the government is entitled to take something it’s not entitled to take.

202) Statist Bill:
But it is entitled to collect sales tax

203) Michael:
They agreed? Did they have the option to transact with a customer without paying the tax?

204) Statist Bill:
The seller does not pay the sales tax, they collect the tax. The buyer pays the sales tax

205) Michael:
I asked a question. Are you going to answer it?

206) Statist Bill:
you said did the seller have a a choice to transact with a customer and not pay the tax

207) Statist Bill:
the seller doesnt pay the tax

208) Michael:
Did the buyer have the option to transact without paying a tax?

209) Statist Bill:
No he does have the option not to transact though

210) Michael:
(Economic correction you should learn: the seller DOES pay the tax; the buyer bears the tax).

211) Statist Bill:
The seller collects the tax and then pays the tax to the government

212) Michael:
So I do not have the freedom to transact without someone taking some of my money. So how in the fuck do I give consent when I don’t have the option to refuse to be taxed?

213) Statist Bill:
The sales tax does not exactly come out of the sellers pocket

214) Statist Bill:
You do have the option to noy pay sales tax. Don’t transact except for on indian reservations

215) Michael:
You tried to claim that I gave consent. I have NO option to transact without being taxed…

Giving consent would be, “yes, government, you can take a few bucks from this transaction… I choose to let you take some money here.”

216) Michael:
Do I have the option to transact WITHOUT being taxed? (not including NA reservations)

217) Statist Bill:
Yes, at garage sales no one is taxed, If you buy something off me i would not charge you tax

218) Michael:
The answer is NO… I have no option. If I walk into McDonalds to buy a cheeseburger, I have given no consent on the private transaction I’m making with McDonalds to have the government take something from the transaction… but yet you think I somehow gave consent.

Disturbing.

219) Statist Bill:
You did give consent. You know if you purchase something at mcDs you have to pay taxes on it
(The hyperlink is mine, but it felt appropriate.)

220) Michael:
No… I have NO choice of transacting without someone taking something from it. That’s not consent.

“You know if you purchase something at mcDs you have to pay taxes on it” – I didn’t fuckin agree to this dude. This was FORCED on to me. By people like you.

Which goes back to the original notion: you want people to be FORCED against their will to do things YOU think is right in spite of what THEY think is right.

221) Michael:
Just admit it…

222) Michael:
You want people to be forced to live in a way you approve… you don’t want a society based on consent… you want a society based on force.

223) Michael:
” You know if you purchase something at mcDs you have to pay taxes on it”

Bill be like, “you did give consent to having sexual intercourse… you know that when you go to a college party, peopel have sex there… so if you walk in, you’re giving consent.”

224) Statist Bill:
Not true, not all people at college parties have sex. All people who buy food at McDs pay taxes

225) Michael:
Bill be like, “you knew that Japanese Americans had to go to prison camps when they walk around in America. They gave consent.”

226) Michael:
Japanese-Americans: “why do I have to go to prison?”

Bill: “You knew being in America would cause you to go to prison for being Japanese; so you therefore give consent. ”

227) Michael:
@MeanDean – Sharing the wealth here since you brought me in on another conversation. Bring your airsick bag, LOL;
you can thank me later, my friend.

228) Mean Dean:
Bill is like herpes. He creeps up when least expected and festers

229) Michael:
Bill is right…. the government never kidnaps people:
Oh wait…
(Link to Article)

230) Michael:
As I said… the law, government, is just an opinion with a gun. The government has an opinion of how to raise kids, and enforces it with weapons. Who in the hell is the government to say it knows how to raise children (or do anything, for that matter) better than an individual.

Why don’t I believe in government? While there’s a deep and detailed answer to that, one of the best ways I can answer that is:

I believe I don’t have the right, nor the ability, nor the knowledge to run your life better than you.

231) Statist Bill:
(link to article)

232) Statist Bill:
For every one story you find like that I will find 100 like the one above

233) Michael:
LOL – first, so you ignore the article I post that the government kidnapped these children against the wishes of the parents. How convenient.

Secondly, as with every “solution” the government provides, you imply that the ONLY way a solution can exist is by the government. That’s where your logic is fundamentally flawed. People like me want solutions; we just don’t want a monopoly of A solution but a plurality of many possible solutions. You love monopolies. I don’t. You don’t want to give people choices. I do.

What you essentially did was say, “look, here is something that the government did that was ‘good’ and it couldn’t have happened any other way… and we get this wonderful ‘good’ thing in spite of all the debt, death, war, corruption, etc. that comes along with it… so yay!”

Sad.

234) Mean Dean:
Government didn’t prevent those children from being abandoned

235) Michael:
But Dean, that IS the solution. Thinking there are other solutions is absurd!

236) Statist Bill:
so is your solution to totally get rid of CPS?

237) Michael:
Ummmmm yes. Why should it exist? As I said, and as you, again, dodged, why should there be a monopolistic solution to this issue.

238) Statist Bill:
what would your recommendation be to replace it?

239) Michael:
Who knows… I’m not an expert in child rearing… and neither is the government. I do know that it shouldn’t be a monopolistic solution.

But why don’t you try to think of a solution? Tell me how it might work without government. If you couldn’t force people to go along with something against their will, what would be a solution you would think of? (in fact, you should do this exercise with everything… “how would I solve this issue without government force).

240) Michael:
Your opinion is essentially this:

“I want MY opinions of child rearing to be THE opinions of child rearing for ALL people and they shouldn’t have a choice.”

That’s terrible.

241) Statist Bill:
Yup because living in a feces filled home is great child rearing

242) Michael:
So again, you avoid, intentionally, the point I made. I just love how when a point is made that you can’t refute, you dodge and spin.

Again, you want a monopolistic solution to problems. You want YOUR solution to be THE solution enforced by government.

I never said that the abhorrent conditions those kids lived in was right. Not once. I will say, though, that CPS did nothing to stop it, did nothing to disincentivize it, and is likely not the ONLY solution to issues like these. You favor monopolies which give people no choice. I don’t.

243) Statist Bill:
you go to the absolute extreme to make every one of your points. When i show the government did something good you dismiss it by saying well couldnt of this been done without the government? I ask what you would replace CPS with and you have no idea? yOu ask me what i would replace it with…I DONT WANT TO REPLACE CPS WITH ANYTHING

244) Michael:
“you go to the absolute extreme to make every one of your points” – What’s “extreme?” If your principle doesn’t hold up under “regular” AND “extreme” positions, you have no principle. But tell me, which “extreme” are you referring to? Again, is it extreme how much debt we have? Oh wait, that’s a reality? Is it an extreme that we drone people around the world? Oh wait, that’s a reality? Tell me what’s “extreme,” Bill.

“When i show the government did something good you dismiss it by saying well couldnt of this been done without the government?”

YES! Everything can be done without the government. There is not ONE single thing the government can do that the private market can’t do.

” I ask what you would replace CPS with and you have no idea?’ – I gave the following accurate reply: “Who knows… I’m not an expert in child rearing… and neither is the government. I do know that it shouldn’t be a monopolistic solution.”

Your reply is, “YES!!!! A monopolistic solution IS the solution… and I want what the GOVERNMENT thinks is best to be THE best for EVERYONE.”

I challenged you to think… to actually take a perceived societal problem and come up with a solution without government. You couldn’t even do it. You think the government IS the answer, which means you want to force every single fucking person to adhere to that answer. Can you even think, dude?

245) Statist Bill:
i don’t have to think when it comes to protecting the welfare of children…CPS does it for me

246) Michael:
And again, you want that forced on to people. You want other people not to think. You want other people to not have choices.

247) Statist Bill:
And again it is not up to me to find another solution since i like the one they already have. it is up to YOU to find another solution since you are the one that wants it changed

248) Michael:
The problem, again: you want me FORCED to accept your solution. You want my money taken from me to pay for your solution. I don’t want to, but I’m forced to.

In my world, people find solutions, but nothing is forced on anyone. If you want something, you pay for it… and if you don’t want something, you’re not forced to pay for it.

This is the difference between you and I, highlighted again: you are an authoritarian who believes that people should be forced to accept things, solutions, associations, etc. I think nothing should be forced onto anyone.

249) Michael:
(I also noticed, not surprised, of course, that you didn’t counter anything else I said.)

250) Statist Bill:
Because you offer nothing of value…you make sweeping statements but never provide any alternatives

251) Statist Bill:
You hate what we have but never offer an alternative

252) Michael:
I don’t need to offer an alternative. I’ve never said you had to believe what I believe. I’ve just tried to convince you not to want to force your beliefs on to me or other people. After all this talking, you still don’t seem to even understand what people like me stand for. That’s really sad.

253) Michael:
You’re also incredibly close mined to not understand what positions people even have because you’re so convinced, and so ready to die for your system that you won’t see it a new way. You then want to force that system on to people who don’t want it forced onto them. For me, I’ve seen your system, and I’ve decided I want there to be other choices… that if people like me who don’t want to have it forced on to us can just live in peace without it, that’s great, and for people like you who want to choose to be subjugated, you can do that.

But again, you want to force people to believe what YOU believe, and somehow you find this to be moral.

254) Mean Dean:
Bill wants you to think for him, Michael

255) Michael:
Haha what could possibly go wrong with that?

But in all seriousness, and I know you understand it, but what’s the scariest/worst part is that he wants this applied to me. If he wants a gang of thugs with weapons to think for him, he can submit himself to that. Great. But to force it on to me or you or any other non consenting person is abhorrent.

256) Statist Bill:
and that’s exactly the way it is

257) Statist Bill:
the way i like it

258) Michael:
Bill won’t just admit that he likes to use force on people to get them to live in a way he approves.

259) Mean Dean:
Cut this douchebag loose and find greener pasture, Michael. He’s a fucking waste if time

260) Statist Bill:
why im not advocating for anything we dont already have…if you have alternatives lets hear them…you talk about ending government but have ZERO alternatives

261) Michael:
I’ve addressed this…

“I don’t need to offer an alternative. I’ve never said you had to believe what I believe. I’ve just tried to convince you not to want to force your beliefs on to me or other people. After all this talking, you still don’t seem to even understand what people like me stand for. That’s really sad.”

I don’t want your views pushed on me… if I don’t have “alternatives,” great… let me be. Why do you want to force people to believe what you believe?

262) Mean Dean:
You’re banging your head against a wall, Michael. Bill is an unthinking dumb fuck. I would have blocked his stupid state worshiping ass a long time ago

263) Statist Bill:
Because i believe all people need to abide by the rules of the society they live in to have a functioning prosperous society. I also believe our society and our government strive to have a smooth functioning society where as many people can prosper as possible. There are countries in the world that do not believe as I believe and oppress their people. I can’t do anything about those sad situations. For example Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Saudi Arabia etc. those are governments and societies I do not agree with.

264) Statist Bill:
Dean, why? You can’t handle people who don’t agree with the nonsense you spew?

265) Mean Dean:
Go suck an egg fuck face

266) Statist Bill:
and that proves it

267) Statist Bill:
just too immature to handle an opinion that is different from yours

268) Mean Dean:
Michael, add years to your life. Dump that shit fuck

269) Michael:
You’re probably right, Dean. But I’d like to hope, deep down, that Bill isn’t as evil and as violence-loving as we think.

I say: “why do you want to force people to believe what you believe?”

He says, “Because i believe all people need to abide by the rules of the society they live in to have a functioning prosperous society”

Proves he wants to force people to live in a way HE thinks is correct.

270) Mean Dean:
No patience for stupidity, bootlicker

271) Michael:
Bill can’t comprehend that people like you and I, Dean, have no problem with rules. We favor polycentric rules… we favor a market solution to rules. We DON’T favor rulERS and we don’t favor a monopolistic set of rules. Bill can’t comprehend this. He can still learn.

272) Statist Bill:
iam not stupid at all, I am happy with the status quo. If the president were in this conversation and basically was saying (in a politically correct way) what I was saying would you want Mike to block him too and would you call him a bootlicker

273) Mean Dean:
Yes, he does. You’re not going to convince him. He’s a lost cause. I would move on

274) Mean Dean:
Fuck you, Bill

275) Michael:
He is a bootlicker, Bill. Just like you. He is just a slave master… nothing special.

276) Statist Bill:
you are just an immature child

277) Mean Dean:
There. I blocked him. The guy is a fucking moron.
(I’m glad Michael and Bill didn’t block each other because that would make transcribing this harder.)

278) Michael:
While Dean’s methods of handling the violence you support and the evil you believe in differently than me, he actually does what you don’t do, Bill: he thinks. He doesn’t believe that his views should be forced on to you… but you believe your views should be forced on to him.

When you think, and you respect other people’s right to be left alone, you might get more respect. His reaction to someone like you, who wants use government violence to see people behave in a way you approve, is not surprising. Your entire set of views is predicated on violating someone to behave in a way they might not want to behave… why are you surprised they might lash out at you?

279) Statist Bill:
Because a normal everyday person i meet on the street would not act like a 5 yr old when someone disagrees with them. Actually If I said this stuff to random people on the street, i would bet 90+percent of them would agree with me. I don’t say things that are outlandish, I don’t push for communism, I do actually agree with you on some issues. Sometimes it’s for two totally different reasons but do agree with you. For instance the religious freedom nonsense. We agreed…But I can’t agree with doing away with things like CPS and not replacing them with anything. CPS does far more good than harm. Can they overstep their bounds sure. Sometimes do they not go far enough? sure.

280) Michael:
There are some things that you simply don’t understand, though, and frankly, I’m tired of teaching you the same thing over and over:

– It has NOTHING to do with getting you to agree with me. If you agree with me, great. If not, great. I have my views, you have yours. I spend so much time, though, teaching you about my views because your views affect my life. Mine do NOT affect yours. You believe in a system that tramples on my life, but my views don’t trample on yours. As I’ve always said, in the world I want to see, that I want to teach people about, there is room for people like you. You are free to associate with anyone as you see fit. But what you want is for me to be forced to adhere to your type of system (whether in this geographic location or another). That disturbs me. So no matter what… what you support harms people around you. What I support gives them the ability to solve problems without forcing people to comply. I abhor initiating violence, force, or coercion against anyone. You seem to have no problem with this.

– I do not oppose governance. I oppose government. I oppose the state. Governance involves freedom. It involves the ability to associate with whomever you want. It involves the ability to disassociate with whomever you want. It respects people and their property. Government is simply a group of people using violence to enforce opinions. I find this immoral.

– I do not oppose rules. I oppose rulers. As I’ve said, you support a monopoly on rules. I don’t. I believe in a market of rules… I believe in choices… I don’t believe in the violent enforcement of edicts by people who think their opinions are better than others.

– You want your views forced on people based on the fear that if they aren’t bad things will happen, but throughout time, government has shown that IT commits the most bad things. I don’t want any of my views forced on anyone. I want people to be left alone. I want people to be able to do what they want to do, and when there are problems, which there will be, there isn’t some random band of thugs that decide what is right and wrong… Your world requires the initiation of force against people who might object; my world forces nothing on anybody and let’s them choose how they live.

– I support freedom of choice and association… you support limiting choice and forced oppression.

281) Michael:
– In my world, people solve problems without forcing others to adhere to something. Ever think: you know, let’s solve this without forcing people to do something? In my world, if something works in the market, it grows. If it doesn’t work, it dies. But in your world, it’s forced. Doesn’t that defy logic? If government’s ideas are so good, why do they need to be forced? If they were so good, wouldn’t there be no need for government? If the ideas were so good, wouldn’t it allow people to make up their own minds without forcing them and giving them no choice?

282) Michael:
In fact, one of the most disturbing things about your views is your unwillingness to think… you don’t consider alternatives.

For example, you keep saying, ” Because i believe all people need to abide by the rules of the society they live in to have a functioning prosperous society.”

But it hasn’t worked. Monolithic law doesn’t work. There are laws against killing… still happens. Mostly by the government. There are laws against theft… still happens. There are laws against drugs. Still happens. There are laws against prostitution… still happens.

Hopefully you see the point. But you won’t even consider an alternative, and that’s really scary. And what’s worst, for people like me who have decided this is not the system we want to see people living with, you want us to be forced to accept it.

Tell me: how is that moral?

283) Statist Bill:
Morality is in the eye of the beholder.
(This comment put a chill through my bones.)

284) Michael:
I didn’t think you’d be able to address anything I said. There isn’t much you could say. You defend controlling people against their will, and you think it’s moral because, well, your group has more weapons. Carry on.

285) Michael:
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Thanks for taking the time to read through this tread, if you have your own arguments with statists please join the Facebook group Arguing with Statists and share them. Thanks once again to Micheal for giving me the lead, and it was really nice meeting him in DC.

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Bill be like…
bullies